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When is a winner not a winner?

So where do you stand this weekend? How in England or in any country should the champion club be decided: with a play-off system, along the lines of the Guinness Premiership semi-finals to be played this Sunday? Or simply by first past the post, so that the team that tops the table at the end of the regular season is the champion?

I feel desperately sorry for any side that can batter through 22 harsh matches so that they proudly stand at the top of the pile only to lose the whole thing in two matches. (In the original play-off format when the table-topping team went straight to the final, you could lose in one afternoon.)

I do see the point of the play-off pushers, though. It is good that a major event comes to a climax before a huge crowd and on the last day of the season. Ironically, that is just what would have happened last Saturday at Kingsholm where first played second ( Gloucester and Bath ), though that was an accident of the fixtures. Twickenham Guinness finals have generally been good and successful.

And yes, I do recall that day in the 1990s when Bath went to Saracens needing to beat them to take the title and did so - and therefore the climax took place at Southgate , a tiny ground with limited capacity, with locals walking their dogs in the background.

As a minimum, they should give a trophy to the team finishing top of the table - history shows that that team very rarely goes on to take the title.

I would love Gloucester to become champions this time, if only for the fact that they have finished top in three of the past five seasons, which is a brilliant achievement. Is it fair that yet again they may have nothing to show for it bar the bruises?

Danger lies ahead

The season at youth and junior level is now over. Our team have just returned from a splendid tour of west Wales and no doubt your local sides are happily putting their feet up until it all begins again for the lads and girls, next season.

But where there should be satisfaction that all you amateur heroes have brought rugby to the youngsters so well for yet another season, there is disquiet. Wherever I have been - on tour, at sevens events, review meetings and in cars and wherever in the past three weeks rugby for young people has been discussed, the name of the International Rugby Board has been cursed. Next season, we all have to teach our youngsters how to pull down the maul, how to collapse a group of up to 16 players so that they fall down over you in a heap. Coaches, parents and especially anxious mothers are desperately worried.

The IRB statistics tell them that the risks are low. Big deal. I feel that all of us involved in the community game at youth level should be provided with the home telephone numbers of any IRB man who wanted the law preventing the deliberate collapse of the mauls to be abandoned. They should be ready to explain to the parents of any seriously injured young players what went wrong with their precious, prejudiced and dangerous theories.

What do you think? E-mail Stephen at rollingmaul@thetimes.co.uk with your opinion and he'll reply to the best of the letters next week.

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>>>>>LIST OF THE WEEK<<<<<

The three players of potential all-time greatness who should have gone down in the annals, but fell short, remained earthbound, frustrated their admirers and had to be content merely with un-heavenly glory. Who should I have added?

1. Keith Jarrett - the Newport and Wales centre of the 1960s and 1970s had a sprinter's speed, was big, hard and arguably the greatest toe-end kicker ever. He was a brilliant all-round sportsman and had film-star looks. He began his Test career with a stunning 19 points against England in 1967 when he was still a teenager. He could have ended above even the canon of Welsh greats, however he made an ill-judged move to rugby league then suffered the first in a series of three strokes, which ended his career. Those of us around at the start are still dreaming.

2. Tim Rodber - the Northampton, England and Lions forward gave in 1997 in South Africa what may have been the most wonderful No 8 display in British and Irish rugby history. He terrified the Springbok back row. Rodber was a massive man, yet athletic and that year was the height of a career that could often blossom but was also plagued by injury, maddening inconsistency and by coaches messing him around by choosing him in too many different positions. Good career, massive talent, final frustration.

3. Richard Metcalfe - Metcalfe, of various clubs, was a genuine seven-footer, an absolute giant of a lock. He was around with Scotland at a time when they lacked big forwards. As he proved with a stint at Northampton, he could be amazingly effective as a line-out man in the pre-lifting days (no-one would ever have lifted him had it then been allowed). He was also a very decent carrier of the ball - you could tackle him before the advantage line, but by the time he came to earth he was over it. He could have been the core forward for Scotland for a decade but, somehow, they never trusted him. Maybe be was just so big that he was deemed freakish. But no-one ever wanted to jump against him.

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The Stephen Jones Debate

Dear Stephen, I am a massive fan of rugby. I was rubbish as a player but I love the sport and, most importantly, I love everything the sport stands for: camaraderie, team spirit, respect for authority, sportsmanship - all the things that are so conspicuously lacking in football. My son is 2-years-old this month. I really want him to play rugby but his mum has got other ideas. She, understandably, is worried about the risk of serious injury. Can you give me any statistics or killer arguments that I can deploy in our constant back-and-forth battle over whether or not he will end up playing rugby. Alex Krohn

SJ: Thanks for writing, Alex, and I see your dilemma and that of your wife. The benefits of playing the game are well known. Rugby is a magnificent pastime and a magnificent environment in which sporting spirit shines through. Team games are wonderful, in my opinion, and rugby is the ultimate team game. It is very physical, though. Before matches involving teams of youngsters I was coaching, whether or not they included my sons, I always offered up a prayer for the safety of the two teams well before I prayed for victory. Rugby is categorically not as dangerous as it can sometimes look to people on the sideline, particularly to the uninitiated. Statistically, it is safer than it has ever been in terms of the prevention of really awful injuries. But there are no clinching arguments either way which hold water - there are awful injuries, but they are incredibly rare. What also scares me is the ghastly experimental law which allows the mauls to be collapsed and the first serious injury under a collapsed maul will be entirely the responsibility of the IRB lawmakers and law meddlers. I am confident that rugby has massive benefits and confident that young people are safe to play it, while admitting that there are no guarantees. Statistics? I am not sure what they prove. Good luck in your decision and don't forget it is a few years yet till your 2-year-old starts playing contact rugby!

Given that Flood and Tait have evidently left Newcastle of their own accord, surely the shake-out must only refer to the coaches? If this is the case, you should qualify why the coaches and/or their relationship with the players in question is complacent. Does not "sending them on their way earlier in the season" as you suggest, warrant the tag "complacent"? The Falcons' website has not yet updated and still shows Flood, Tait and a certain Matt Thompson, the son of the chairman, Dave. The rumour is that as Matt was not selected by Fletcher he was shown the door. Complacency and cosiness? Steven Clegg

SJ: Yes, absolutely. The chairman is totally entitled to believe that his investment should bear fruit and that Newcastle should be better than 11th in the table, and it is intolerable that players should pout just because their old mates and mentors are given the push. Sorry, but it's a hard life. I would guess that the coach was shown the door because of very poor results, full stop.

"The blunt and engaging Dave Thompson has been the saviour of professional rugby in the North East and last week, in offloading Mathew Tait and Toby Flood, he struck a blow for the club's continuing prosperity." I feel you're missing a key point in Thompson's press release, though. He clearly said that the club could no longer deal with having half its backline missing for half the season, by which I assume he meant that they were off playing and training for England internationals. So is this the first admission that the Guinness Premiership is becoming more like the football Premier League where club success is the only important thing and breeding English players is actually a nuisance? We all know how well that's gone for the England football team. As a Welshman it heartens me to hear Thompson's comments as I'll happily let England win the Heineken Cups if we can keep getting the Grand Slams. Marc Bright

SJ: Marc, trust me on this. The day I start believing that anyone gives the real story in a press release will be the day they take me to the funny farm (overdue, you may say).

I must agree with you in terms of Flood and Tait's departure from Newcastle in that they have not been as effective as players of their international calibre should be. Running attractive arcs and diagonals behind the gain line isn't what Newcastle or England need. The point seemed to be, however, that they have been offloaded for the sake of continuity in the backline, and the murmurings from Kingston Park seem to concern some average Super-14 players being drafted in as replacements. Certainly, this offers more backline consistency but surely Falcons fans should wait to find out who these replacements are? Flood in particular has had a couple of sensational games in Falcons colours this season - close to the game-changing performance one would want from an inside centre. Falcons fans are worried about the wage bill: being in a precarious financial position, if players are recruited in this frame of mind then Newcastle will struggle next season. I look forward to seeing Tait pushed to the limits of his own special talent by Saint-Andre, who does love a broken-field runner at full-back. As for Flood, if and when Leicester play Gloucester next season and he comes up well in comparison with Olly Barkley, it will have been a good move for both of them. Certainly the Kingston Park comfort zone has done them few favours. Matt Nixon

SJ: Well put, Matt. This is beginning to read like an assault on one club and I hope that both Tait and Flood thrive in their new homes. The Super-14 players are hardly household names, of course, but I suspect that they will be ferocious battlers.

Sorry Jonesy, but you've got it wrong with Geech. Certainly he's a fine coach and his record in the professional era demands respect. But he didn't lift Scotland above what we normally expect in his second spell as coach and he was a bit of a disaster as the SRU's director of rugby. I have always felt McGeechan was at his best in tandem with Jim Telfer, who was the better motivator and streets ahead when it came to forward play. For my money, rugby's greatest coach has to be Carwyn James. His exploits with the 1971 Lions revolutionised British rugby coaching. He supported the hard-nosed forwards such as Ian McLauchlan, Ray McLoughlin, Willie McBride & Co in thwarting the All Blacks' "bending" of the laws, while allowing Gareth Edwards, Barry John, Mike Gibson, Gerald Davies and the like to produce running rugby which those who saw it still purr about today. Matt Vallance, Ayrshire

How can any UK coach ever be placed ahead of Carwyn James? Shame on you for even suggesting it. Joe Dennehy

McGeechan is a great coach, but he and all the others in the modern era are overshadowed by the man whose strategies and intellect ruined the All Blacks' invincible reputation: the late, great Carwyn James. Ask Gareth, Barry and Gerald! But Geech must be the Lions coach - together with Gerald Davies they would be unbeatable. RG James, Brasschaat, Belgium

SJ: How are you keeping, Matt? And thanks to Joe and Mr James. I can feel the force of your opinions. Andy Irvine said today that given the dearth of talent, Geech's record with Scotland is by no means bad. Carwyn was just before my time and his death was a tragedy as well as a sporting disaster. It also stopped him proving whether or not he could sustain his brilliance year in and year out for over 20 years. He may well have done, but that is precisely what Ian McGeechan has done and that it why I unhesitatingly make him number one.

For a man that opts for victory over performance and development, the selection of Blaze, Care and Hartley is a surprisingly long-term strategy. As much as I welcome change in the England set-up I believe that this tour is perhaps the best time to revert to type in the second row. As promising as Blaze may be, there is nothing to suggest that he would agitate the New Zealand breakdown, maul and ruck in the same manner that a Grewcock, Short, Borthwick, Shaw, Skivington, Kennedy or Kay would. With Cipriani and Care viable starters, England need teak toughness in the second row to supplement the piano players in the back division. The fact that NZ are weak in this key position is highly significant for the tourists, although there is a strong chance that England could be equally weak in this area in the near future. A lot of Premiership clubs are missing a key trick in not loaning out their young tight-five forwards into the ultra-physical National One or even encouraging them to play in the NPC as Tom Ryder will do this summer. What Blaze has learnt training every week with Marco Wentzel is not comparable to a season of trial and error with those largely part-time warriors. Ben Saunders, Beckenham

SJ: I agree Ben. I don't usually advocate throwing in youngsters but I have to say that in your list I do not see a real, giant, hardcore middle-line jumper and feel that great teams still need them. I would have taken Grewcock to New Zealand but the others on your list are either a little slight or a little old, especially in terms of the middle of the line. But your National One point is spot on - it is probably harder than the Premiership in some aspects and I wish that Blaze had just played a 26-match National One season!

I heartily applaud your inclusion in the proposed England squad of both Dylan Hartley, who was such a dynamic force for the Saxons earlier in the year, and Danny Care, who has been instrumental in revitalising the season at Harlequins and must be one of the three 9s alongside Ellis and Wigglesworth. I suggest, though, that we remove Olly Barkley and bring in James Simpson-Daniel. Sinbad has always been the closest thing England could hope for to a Shane Williams or a Vincent Clerc, running beautiful lines and finding space where lesser men would see nothing. Playing in a team that would also include Paul Sackey's powerhouse finishing and David Strettle's brilliant pace and step, Simpson-Daniel could help to produce the spark that seems to be missing from England's backs and the inspiration to get the whole team firing consistently once more. If we can only find an Englishman worthy of the number 15 shirt, England's back-line could be a thing to be envied. Richard Lennon

SJ: Richard, many of those who coached Simpson-Daniel in the early years agree totally with you, saying that he should be brought inside to one of the playmaking positions. I still go for Barkley as 12 but the backline you outline is tasty. However, the injury agony continues for Sinbad. He is out of the summer tour and we are still waiting for him to fulfil himself.

Following your suggestions of five players that must travel to New Zealand next month, I'd like to make a case for a few alternatives. While Olly Barkley has proved himself as a bone fide 12 this season and should indeed travel, the re-introduction of Shane Geraghty to the international fraternity is an absolute must. Explosive and cunning in equal measure, a partnership of him and Tindall would make the All Blacks immediately sit up and take notice. The second "must" is James Simpson-Daniel. How he has not been a full and regular feature over the last six years is baffling. Who can forget his surging break against the All Blacks in 2002 that, if not for an untimely slip, would have gone down as one of the great Twickenham tries? As a Quins fan I can only hope that Sinbad's selection results in the grounding of Dave Strettle. England have done such a good job of breaking the poor lad every time he gets near the white shirt we could do with him having the summer off and being fit and ready for the start of next season. On another matter, given that the IRB has succeeded in nullifying the effectiveness of one of the more beautiful aspects of forward play, are we safe in assuming you'll be required to change the name of your column from next season? I'm pretty sure the ARU were cooking that one up the moment they saw England roll them back 40 metres in June 2003. Mike Davies, London, England

SJ: Yes Mike, it's going to be Collapsed Maul next season. My views on Sinbad are set out above and it is a crying shame that neither he nor Geraghty can tour. I still have this image of Geraghty being tossed around like a rag doll by bigger players. I am still waiting to be convinced by Strettle and I also think he was drafted in too early. I hope he does not come to any harm with England.

I agree with those correspondents who believe the collapsing of a maul will be extremely dangerous. The present maul, however, is a mess - there is no adequate or legitimate means of defence against it. If none of the attacking team could be in front of the ball carrier and no more than two alongside him, with similar restrictions on the defending team I believe this would make for a better and fairer law for the players and a better spectacle for the fans. Jeff Higham

SJ: That is a far better idea than putting players and kids in danger under a heap of players, Jeff.

I cannot believe that there isn't a single pundit in England willing to put their neck on the line in favour of the ELVs. You used the Bath-Gloucester fixture as proof that we do not need rule changes. I find this analysis bizarre and misguided. While the first half showed all the brilliance of rugby with flowing expansive stuff from Bath and Gloucester matching this with tremendous defence, the second half was a non-spectacle. This is solely down to rules that over-punish players for offenses that don't warrant penalties, such as holding on at the ruck. The game has changed much in the advent of professionalism and so has the way players are coached. They are coached to play a game overseen by antiquated rules. You claim that the Super-14 was dour compared to the Premiership action last weekend. The Crusaders v Reds game was spectacular and a complete positive for the change of rugby rules. I am a child of the professional era and so didn't experience amateur rugby like you but I do love the game. It seems clear to me that in the ultra professional modern game we need rules that reflect the athletes and coaching manifestos. Jamie Foster

SJ: Holding on in the ruck doesn't deserve a penalty? I never claimed that the Super-14 was dour. It was just rubbish. And you are right, there is not a single pundit willing to support the new laws, among my colleagues. Our necks are on the line all right, Jamie. We are saving rugby.

To claim some sort of victory when many of the ELVs are to be trialled further after he opposed them and to continue to spout insults at those of a different view shows what arrogance S Jones has. I agree, however, that having three different versions of the game played in different parts of the world is ridiculous. Gareth Williams, Powys

SJ: Hardly any of the major ELVs will be trialled in a serious event.

"Sean Fitzpatrick is just one of many who think that the intensity of the Premiership is a better proving ground than any Southern Hemisphere event." Remind me who won the 1999 and 2007 World Cups? Oh that's right, teams selected from the inferior proving ground of Super 12/14. Kevin, Washington, USA

SJ: Is this an entry in the Grand Spot the Point event?

You say that all rugby league players are slow ("only two gears, dead slow and stop"). I'd love to know how you reconcile this with the fact that Wigan and Bradford won the Twickenham Sevens in 1996 and 2002. Presumably they had massively superior skills in other areas to compensate for their slowness? Chris Hughes, Cambridge, UK

SJ: I still find it hard when discussing Sevens not to add the words "so what?" afterwards. No, I didn't notice any superior skills.

This area of the e-mail is reserved for your views and boos. E-mail Stephen at rollingmaul@thetimes.co.uk and he'll either agree, disagree, add some insight or come back firing...

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>>>>>HERO OF THE WEEK<<<<<

Akapusi Qera, Gloucester

For someone who is not steeped in the culture and searing intensity of the Guinness Premiership to turn in a raft of high class performances is remarkable in itself. For the flying Fijian to manage that and then also still be on wonderful form right at the very end of the campaign suggests a special player. Qera is rather willowy in build but a titanic, heroic rugby player. His display for Gloucester against Bath last week, when on the ball, tackling like thunder, carrying with power, even winning line-outs, was one of the great individual performances of this or any other season. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The week in 60 seconds

Thursday:

McGEECHAN IS CONFIRMED AS THE MAN FOR ALL LIONS SEASONS

London Wasps director of rugby will embark on his seventh tour looking to repeat his victory over South Africa in 1997

Report by David Hands

THOMAS TO COVER THE LACK OF OPTIONS OPEN TO WALES

The outstanding blind side will change position on the tour to South Africa as England confirm approach for Brian Smith

Report by David Hands and Mark Souster

STEVENS THREATENS TO JOIN BATH EXODUS IF THERE ARE NO SIGNS OF DEVELOPMENT

The England prop says lack of progress off the field at the Guinness Premiership club is making him consider future

Report by Mark Souster

Wednesday:

SMITH READY TO TAKE ON ROLE IN SUPPORTING CAST UNDER NEW MANAGER

Martin Johnson wants the Australian, currently director of rugby at London Irish, on board in time for the tour of New Zealand

Report by Mark Souster

THE HARD WORK STARTS NOW AS JOHNSON LOOKS TO THE FUTURE

The new manager offered no grand promises of success in New Zealand but a steely determination that his first England side will do itself justice

Analysis by David Hands

Tuesday:

JOHNSON'S BOLD NEW ERA EXPECTED TO KICK OFF UNDER INJURY CLOUD

England manager expected to make cautious start to reign with selection of youth and experience for New Zealand tour

Report by David Hands

BORTHWICK TO CAPTAIN ENGLAND IN NEW ZEALAND

Bath lock replaces injured Phil Vickery as captain in Martin Johnson's squad for June Tests against All Blacks

Report by Times Online

BORTHWICK HAS CHANCE TO LEAD BEYOND TWO-MATCH TOUR

There are signs, if no more than that, of a changing of the guard within the England team under Martin Johnson

Analysis by David Hands

Monday:

INJURIES TO KEY PLAYERS GIVE JOHNSON FIRST PROBLEM WITH SELECTION

England manager faces first obstacle for tour to New Zealand after several key players limp out of Premiership matches

Report by David Hands

VARNDELL'S GENIUS HANDS LOFFREDA UNEXPECTED GET-OUT-OF-JAIL CARD

Leicester 31 Harlequins 28: Victory guarantees another season of European rugby for under-pressure Marcelo Loffreda

Report by Mark Souster

Sunday:

GLOUCESTER EDGE TITANIC CLASH

Gloucester 8 Bath 6: James Simpson-Daniel scores the only try as Gloucester earn a home draw in the Premiership semi finals

Report by Stephen Jones

TIGERS ROAR BACK FROM THE BRINK

Leicester 31 Harlequins 28: Tom Varndell's last-gasp try gives the Tigers a vital bonus-points win over Harlequins

Report by Nick Cain

HOME HELP CAN SWING SEMIS TO SAVOUR

Gloucester and Wasps are in pole position after a seismic day of Premiership action

Analysis by Stuart Barnes

JOHNSON'S BABY

The new England manager should be bold in his first selection for a tour they can win

Analysis by Stuart Barnes

McGEECHAN A RACING CERTAINTY TO GET LIONS ROARING

The Scot knows how to lift the Lions and is the man to erase the memories of 2005

Analysis by Jeremy Guscott

Saturday:

JOHNSON AND ENGLAND MUST WAIT FOR FINAL TWIST TO SEASON OF HIGH DRAMA

Thoughts of international tours and transfer talk are put on hold before a compelling final day of the Guinness Premiership

Report by David Hands

Friday:

RESURGENT TINDALL CAN BE LEADING LIGHT FOR ENGLAND

Gloucester head coach Dean Ryan says that Martin Johnson should look no further than his club for the next captain

Report by Mark Souster

DRAMATIC UPS AND DOWNS OF SPORT ENCAPSULATED IN THRILLING WEEKEND

For all the pain of supporting your team during the season, it could come down to 80 minutes of holding your head in your hands

Comment by Gabby Logan

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Things you need to know about rugby: No13

A FINAL DISGRACE

So we get all excited about the Lions, we herald the return of Geech as coach, the players rev up to be ready. Then we find that, staggeringly, the Guinness Premiership final is to take place on the same day as the first Lions match. Most of us firmly believe that there should be three clear weeks before the first Lions game and that they should depart as a squad on the same day. The fact that they may now have to leave in dribs and drabs, exhausted and maybe injured, is a savage blow to their chances.

Two things could happen. The organisers of the Heineken Cup could switch their final next year with the Guinness Premiership final, at least giving some respite as it is likely that at least one of the teams in the European final will be French. Or by inserting a round of Premiership matches into a fallow area of the season, the final could be staged a little earlier.

We await the decision. Anyone standing against the imperative to allow the Lions proper preparation stands condemned of ruinous, narrow-minded and self-defeating self-interest.

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35

Number of players Ian McGeechan will take on the Lions tour of South Africa.

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Suggestions, fan mail and complaints: rollingmaul@thetimes.co.uk