To reply to "Mike Bibby of St. Albans" about paying the MoD Civil Servants from the EDS pay system. For your information NO Civil Servants actually work in the pay office. As stated in the article, JPA was implemented by EDS (a Contractor). I am one of those Civil Servants who has the unfortunate position of being forced to work with this inadequate system and would quite gladly get rid of it. If anyone, especially the government, DID listen to me when I shouted then my under-inflation pay rise of less than 2% a year would have been the first thing I moaned about and JPA second!!!

ES, Glasgow, Scotland

Funny how these MPs never seem to underpay themselves despite a highly complex pay and allowance system ! I wonder how much money Des Brown managed to "save" with this error. The way that this Government are treating our public servants is outrageous. Squaddies can't go on strike any more than the Police can without committing criminal offences so they are an easy target. They are treating the men and women in the front lines in a way that is reminiscent o0f the way that the French government treated its troops before WW1 and WW2.

Rob Parry, CAERNARFON, Wales

I have first hand experience of this wonderful 'new' pay system having been underpaid since July 2007 and only just seeing the matter sorted this month (Decembe)r. I have never been informed as to why my pay was messed up in the first place. I was fortunate that I had an understanding bank which allowed me overdraft facilities so I could meet my monthly mortgage payments etc. Many junior members of the forces will not have such arrangements. The Customer Help Desk is an absolute nightmare as you have to phone a Help Desk number that registers your call. The company then have 10 working days to give any form of response. The matter is then passed to back office staff who cannot be contacted direct. There is no way of complaining about the poor customer service allowing the service provider to get away with providing an appalling service to the military. Having served 32 years in the military this is another example of poor service and commitment to those who serve.

Peter, Plymouth,

And what of the famous Smart procurement procedures by the Defence Procurement Agency, subject to the so-called Best Practice guidelines of the Office of Government Commerce and the Gateway Process? Have they let EDS off the hook? Were EDS ever on the hook? The contract should have ensured that EDS are financially liable for consequential losses. Will matters ever change? How do EDS continue to secure fat contracts? By appointing retired Generals as Chief Executive without ever spending a day in business?

M Davis, East Preston, England

Funny how this only reaches the pess now it is affecting officers pay!!

I can assure you this has been going on for well over a year. Since the JPA rollout hit the RAF our pay was down for 12 consequitive months. Those who complained inside the RAF were given no assistance at all, and when they complained to their local MP's they were hauled infront of the station commander and repremanded some where even told to sign ready prepared letters saying that the matter had now been resolved (even though it hadn't). Some people were 5k down and had to beg for hand outs of a few hundred a month to help them get by. When they threatened to go to the press they were told to wave goodbye to their career.

Check out those working for the JPA, I think you will find one or two of them are the very same high ranking ex military personell who gave the thumbs up to this system - it stinks.

KM, Notts,

" HAVE THEY NO SHAME?" None whatever, [ they are politicians]!

S. Barraclough, Huddersfield, W. Yorkshire

I left the Army after 6 years in June 07. Throughout my service the poor administration was the single biggest and most common frustration for all ranks. The fact that an institution that purported to uphold the highest values and standards did not seem to care about such fundamental failings as consistent pay chaos tells the real tale of the shortcomings of the chain of command over recent years. Many senior officers talked a good game of looking after the lads but all too often the rhetoric did not match the reality. JPA (an underfunded solution) has simply exacerbated an existing problem. Hopefully the problems will iron out but on past experience this is unlikely. Underlying all this is the total lack of accountability within the AGC. This Corps is meant to be a Combat Service Support arm, although in reality its sees little or no combat, it certainly does not see itself as providing a service to the rest of the Army, and it does precious little supporting for that matter.

Evs, Tyre, Lebanon

Things stay the same. I was underpaid for 9 months by the RAF in 1983 and again for 3 months in 1986. The answer, after pleading, cajolling and trying everything I could to get my pay clerk to sort things out, I redressed OC Admin under QR 101. Problem solved in a morning.

Jon, Owaka, New Zealand

There are brave British soldiers fighting and winning THIS DAY in the Afghan town of Musa Qala. They can't stop to worry about whether they will get paid for their service or what Christmas is going to be like for their family this year.

That's YOUR problem, but you;re not doing your job. I'm a friend and ally, but I'll be damned if t can understand how you people have allowed your military to disintegrate.

If Britain doesn't need a military force, why not just disband it instead of letting it die like this in disgrace?

Paul Woodside, San Jose, California

This is just the SAP system we in local government had rammed down our throats buy Two Jags when he was DPM.

It appears it works just abouts as well for us as it does for the troops. My wife runs a residential unit, and pays the same utility bill 3 or 4 times and still get threatened with court action for non payment.

Who at the centre comes up with these systems, and given the billions paid to a handful of suppliers, what are the contracting arrangements?

Larry Ward, Bedford, UK

This was also reported in the Sunday Telegraph a number of weeks ago and still nothing has happened.

Emma, Glasgow,

why dont they use the same computers that keep a check on if you have paid your TV licence, or road taxs. or any other money we have to pay to this government. they never seem to go wrong

Reg Horne, Aylesbury, UK

The RAF has actually had this system in place since April 2006. I know because my husband, who is a member of the RAF has not been paid correctly since it was introduced. It is a disgrace!

K McCann, Bangor, Co Down

I am the former Gurkha officer.Now reside here in the UK with my three sons but we Gurkhas are still paid according to cost of living in Nepal.And according to the Indian pay code?
War office been always bias against the Gurkha soldiers in terms and condition since the very start.
British govt have always treated the soldiers as herd of animals.Use them and dump them like garbage.

Yam Gurung, Watford, UK

here we go again yet another mess because this stupid governement, no doubt at vast expense has used another failing computer system

peter codner, devizes, england

Why oh why did the goverment contract EDS to set up the new pay system after the child support agency? Does no one in whitehall learn from their mistakes?

James Cornish, Lancaster, Lancashire

Any labour government which sends troops to a war should have all labour ministers serving on the front line to appraise them of the actual dangers faced by troops.

J OHN, DUNDEE, angus

I fear that the MOD stats are another Brownesque stat to try and mask the true extent of the problem. Let us not forget that the Army was delayed and had the benefit of 'lessons learned' from similarly disastrous introductions of the same system to the RN and RAF. Goodness knows the extent of the impact, of JPA, on those 2 services was and it would be interesting to discover what lessons were learned.

The system is insecure too, it enables personnel to be paid twice. Aftercare is incredibly problematic and inadequate. Despite efforts to address the JPAC helpdesk support system, it continues to provide a less than satisfactory service. Some problems can take months to rectify and iSupport requests are often closed arbitrarily without satisfactory resolution.

Quite frankly, from an admin perspective, it has failed and continues to fail our Service personnel.

Thierry, London,

Simple solution: pay MoD civil servants through the Services payroll system - not the Civil Service one.

Screams of outrage from Civil Servants. Problem solved within days!

Mike Bibby, St Albans, England -not EU

The way that this Government treats or troops ,who are sent to fight very dangerous "wars" in far off Countries is nothing short of scandalous. I would NEVER join the army until we get a decent Government who actually care about their troops and provide them with much more equipment and and actually pay them on time. For gods sake, this Government is obscenely incompetent and should be dealing with this PRONTO.

Simon, London, UK

It's a downright disgrace that any serviceman or woman should be treated in this way.It is time they went back to using their brains instead of computers.

I.D.Hamilton, Accrington.Lancs, England

This is a disgrace. I hope it is the final nail in the coffin for our part-time Defence Secretary. EDS have a track record of incompetence and the military pay system was working perfectly well until they got their sticky fingers into it.

One of the central tenets of la vie militaire is that a soldier's pay and his leave are two areas that are sacrosanct. This rotton-to-the-core government does not contain a single person with enough honour to have served in our armed forces - and it shows.

Roddy Campbell, Christchurch, New Zealand

This has been going on since April and, unfortunately, the ones who ae directly suffering do not have the power to do anything about it; an antiquated establishment trying to play with modern toys whilst service personnel are living in very difficult conditions (including those who are not on operations at present) without even the knowledge that when they get home they can at least pay their bills and makeup for lost time with their friends and families. Who else would get up and go to work knowing that you were not going to get the financial recompense deserved and without the support of the Government who put you there in the first place?

Louise, Scotland,

So, the government introduced this system to save money. Knowing it was badly flawed and would cost the poor suffering servicemen and women (not to mention their families) both financially and in increased stress levels. It seems that this government cares very little about our forces. All they are interested in is looking good on the international stage by putting our people in harms way. They then mutter inane platitudes in the House of Commons about our dead servicemen and women. HAVE THEY NO SHAME?

Chris Collier, Fareham, UK

Well spotted detail on Brown's troops return numbers spin -it was always the same technique with his budgets -grab a headline and then backtrack on the detail when the story has
moved on .
As for soldiers pay -interesting to note that yet another
Government computer system fails by underpaying the troops
but manages to overpay where payments are due on welfare
or tax credits - underpayments for hard pressed farmers too of course. A Nulabour 'message; here?

David, Uzes, France

Is it true that the MoD plan to publish the bank details of all personnel - or is that an HMRC responsibility these days - I do get so confused... or perhaps it was just the locations of all our forces?

matt, london, uk

I myself have been under paid by around £20 a day since April 2006 until Sept 2007, i had a phone call back from Glasgow last week saying they have now sorted it out, but the truth is, it is only half of what they owe me, so it is going to be another nightmare trying to sort out the rest on top of the pension i am entitled too of which they are not paying yet.

Nigel C Jones, Newtown, Powys

Government computer schemes appear chaotic. It does not bode well for the massive NHS and Identity card schemes now likely to cost many billions of pounds. Unreliable IT schemes are a total loss in many cases.

paul, Charlottesville,Virginia,

Only way to solve this is for either the servicemen threaten to resign on masse or all cabinet minsters pay is suspended until the problem is sorted out, either would cause the problem to be sorted out rather rapidly.

Stephen, St. Ives, England

In the end, any CO or OC should have the power to protect their soldiers and their families from shortfalls of payments, or extra needs, whatever the cause of the failure. If they can't do that, what are they for?

If the government loses a bit of money by the wayside, thats their own fault.

Michael Moore, Stockport,

They have nominated themselves for an award in 2008. Check out the "spin" and claims on:

http://www.civilservicenetwork.com:80/index.php?id=228

Dave, Taun, England, UK

What a disgrace: but are you surprised ? This country has historically under recognised it's heros ! I suggest a straight 10% cut for Ministers salaries for 3 months.

Mike, Wells Somerset

Mike, Wells, Somersey

Has anyone noticed that when there are 'computer problems' causing people to be paid wrongly, they are always UNDERPAID?
Is there a software package that ensures the computer always saves the Government money?

GJB, Slough, BERKSHIRE

This problem has been ongoing for a long time. My son has done tours of Iraq and Afghanistan, all the time being under-paid (sorted now, I believe).
Lack of equipment, faulty equipment, too few service people, and many paid wrongly. The abuse of the loyalty of our young serving folk by politicians – of all colours – is appalling.
Too many bloody lawyers in parliament. Time to trim the house of commons' herd I think, and introduce quotas of different professions maybe?

Joe, Glasgow, Scotland

With a part time Secretary of State for Defence during a time when our forces are 'at war' in Afghanistan and Iraq, is it any surprise that the ones at the front are treated in such a diabolical matter. Give them a decent pay rise and pay them on time.

paul , exeter, england

You can be sure that this will not affect the huge salaries of labour appointed armchair generals sitting in their £1,000 chairs at MOD keeping well away from the front line.. Don't worry about these guys- they'll manage nicely.

Doug, Glasgow,

To say that input errors have led to problems and imply it's user error is an outright lie. Everyone knows the error is with the transfer of records from the old system and an appalling level of customer service from the civilianised Joint Personnel Administration Centre who tell you it will take up to ten days to call you back, then never do. The support for the system is terrible and I can't count the pay problems its caused in my unit already. No-one is happy. It used to all be sorted out by the clerks in our unit but 'savings' allegedly have been made by minimising clerical staff. Yeah savings have been made, made by not paying soliders!!!

Dave, London,

What you read is not even close to the complete chaos that is causing hardship to Reg & Res forces alike, Over pay, under pay, no pay, paying allowances wrongly and not receiving allowances due, it's an absolute disgrace!

Huge amount of time by admin staff is being used to sort problems with the effect that routine work suffers thus causing pressure & stress.

What a way to treat those who will lay down their lives for this country!

James, Derby,

And did you know that someone has nominated this terrible software for 2 awards? Or that hundreds of admin staff have been made redundant as this software was supposed to do their jobs? Or that it unavailable to staff on operations? Or when you call the helpline you are told that they are unable to help as it is a unit level admin problem, but the unit admin people don't have the correct permissions to fix the problem.

The correct timeline by the way, was introduction to the RAF in March 06, the RN and RM in Oct 06 and the Army this year.

fred, bolton,

Compulsory National Service before becoming a member of the Government is the only way to stop the Parasites in Power stealing from our Soldiers, sailors and Airmen.
With no Ex Servicemen or women in the Cabinet i, ts made up of Solicitors and Accountants, known in the services as xxxx slime'

bob, chester,