Steve Hawkes, Retail Correspondent
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Sir Stuart Rose, the chief executive of Marks & Spencer, has called upon Jeremy Paxman to put his pants on the line and settle a debate that is threatening to divide the nation.
Sir Stuart has invited the presenter of the BBC’s Newsnight programme to have his pants tested by M&S’s technical specialists to see if his claim of a decline in quality bears up to examination.
The Times has also been invited along to watch. Sir Stuart said: “I’m inviting him in to see our specialists. My message to Jeremy is: bring them in — we will put them to the test. We’ll sort your tackle out.”
The comments came as Sir Stuart mounted a passionate defence of M&S underwear after the huge media coverage given to Paxman’s complaint, sent by e-mail and leaked at the weekend.
Paxman said there was “widespread anxiety” at the lack of support in M&S pants and that its socks were wearing out too quickly.
Paxman said he would be delighted to accept the challenge. He said: “Nothing I have ever done — interviewing Michael Howard, asking Tony Blair whether he prays with George Bush, nothing — has elicited such a response. I have been deluged with e-mails; strangers have accosted me in the street saying, ‘Good on you’. There is a real issue here.
“I wrote to Sir Stuart because I think Marks & Spencer is an iconic British brand and I want them to do well. They will not do well in this field with this level of quality.”
Sir Stuart said the complaint was in stark contrast to the overwhelming satisfaction felt by millions of other M&S customers. M&S sells 32 million pairs of underpants and 44 million pairs of socks each year.
He told The Times: “Our returns on pants are just 0.08 per cent, and socks 0.06 per cent. People return anything they’re not happy with. If we had a problem our returns would be over 1 per cent, but they’re not even over 0.1 per cent. I wear M&S underpants and I’m not rolling around.”
He added: “Jeremy wasn’t very precise — it was just a general complaint that they were not as comfortable as they used to be. As people get older they tend to need a bit more support. Perhaps that’s the problem.”
Marks & Spencer sells one in every five pairs of Y-fronts and boxer shorts sold on the high street.
Sir Stuart said that despite fierce competition from the likes of Tesco and Primark, the company’s strictness on quality had not changed. M&S buyers specify the length of yarn used, the strength and the smoothness — all critical to the garment holding its colour and not shrinking.
“If you get ten pairs of white underpants from different retailers, including ourselves, wash them ten times, hang them out to dry, some would be grey, some would have shrunk and ours would be pretty passable.
“We are the only retailer to have a team of 70 people dedicated to rigorous testing, of yarn, the fit and shrinkage. Our shrinkage is the lowest you can get.
“When you go to a supermarket I can understand the temptation to throw in some pants and socks but if you did you’d be going back for more pretty quickly. You’re better off choosing more quality in the first place.”
He added that Paxman was not being given special treatment. “We take all our customers seriously. I get letters all the time, half of which are positive, half of which are negative. I respond to all of them.”
The debate has already dragged in the store chain’s rivals. Asda, home of the George clothing brand, said it was sending Paxman a selection of its Y-fronts and boxer shorts. A spokesman said: “We’ve been panting to enter this debate.”
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Dear Jeremy,
You are 100% correct the M & S pants are most uncomfortable. They may last well under test as far as the fabric is concerned but they are hell to wear. I think that the quality may well be OK but Sir Stuart has missed your point with regard to comfort..
However I have solved the problem, Matalan in Kilburn stock Pringle Pants at £7 each and they are perfect. They are everything that M & S pants are not. I promise that you will bless me for this information.,
As a retired M & S supplier it pains me to write this email.
Sincerely David Finegold.
David Finegold., Hampstead, London, England.
Stuart Rose doesn't make sense to establish a decline in quality you surely have to look at the pants produced over the last decade and have all the science of support etc and material/ quality examined and rated.
What he has proposed to Mr Paxman is arrogant and embarrassing. He should produce the pants they have produced over last few years to prove that they have increased in quality and durability etc.
I have pants from M&S from comparable ranges (about £68 each) since about 2000. There was jump up after 2000 for a few years but the last 3 years they have been erratic and quality varying. - The support has faded. The socks don't even last a year, the colour fades and they run to holes. Their food is dire for the price they charge, you don't get shoe boxes, they don't have 28inch waist trousers the list goes on.
Paul, Newcastle,
On a recent trip to London the airline lost my bag, so I went to M&S at Brent Cross to buy underwear, socks and a shirt. The shirt had a hole, I returned it. The socks and underwear I have since left in the back alley for our local dumpster divers. M&S is no longer the benchmark for quality it once was, pretty much a reflection of life in Britain today.
Chris Marshall, Vancouver, Canada
Hmmm. I din't realise knockers were for support. I thought they were for general comfort, warmth, and modesty. Likewise socks. socks wear out. Live with it.
Jamie, Scarborough, UK
We always used to stock up on M and S undies when we came from Canada to visit the UK.Alas no more.Things are very pretty but dont seem to fit as well or last as well as they used to.
I agree with Mr Paxman and the other comments.
The food is good though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jane, Toronto, Canada
Jeremy is quite right , the quality is no more the same,
I go to London especially to buy underwear from M & S ,
and the last purchase confirm Jeremy finding .
No support , flimsy elasics and the socks wear out in no time.
Mr. Rose take notice.!
Tino, Arpaillargues , Gard., France
At least Jeremy Paxman got a response from M&S. I was so disatisfied with the M & S home delivery service that I wrote to the Head of Customer Relations. In the absence of any response I then wrote to Stuart Rose enclosing all the relevant paper work, sending the package by recorded delivery. Five month's later, not even an acknowledgement. I hope all their pants fall down.
Alan Ingle, Axminster, Devon
Sir Stuart remains a Legend!
What a refreshing change to continue to read a CEO's comments and remain interested and not fall off your chair with boredom with all the self-praising and anal retentive garbage they normally spill!
I'm of the view that the softer your underwear gets, the more comfy they become!
Full credit to Sir Stuart, he has turned the company around from an old jumble sale shop to an ethically minded, fair priced, quality merchandise (although not all to my taste), store!
Continue 'Saying it how it is' Sir Stuart ! - i shall continue to read your comments with interest and a sense of humour!!!!
Can you believe we have the Nation discussing underpants instead of the normal gloom and doom - terrific stuff!!!
(Surname is the same - but no relation!)
Jacqui Rose, Southampton, UK
M and S underwear has been no good for a very long time. The bras never fit properly compared to the well known makes and their knickers come up about 2 sizes too small. I have found the fit and quality to be better in Matalan, my husband says the same about men's trunks. The last time I bought t shirts for my husband they were completely out of shape after a few washes,he has much cheaper ones that are better quality. I used to buy a selection of their basic lambswool sweaters in new colours every winter, but when they started outsourcing a few years ago they would become holey in the wash. I don't really shop much in Marks anymore, yet I was a dedicated fan back in the 80s - mid 90s.
Linda, Fife,
There is definitely a problem with M&S underwear - the bras are a dreadful fit now, having always been reliable - I always thought that my preferred styles from M&S were made by Warners, as the fit matched ones I had bought from independent stores under that label. Not the case any more, they don't fit at all well, the wires are uncomfortable, and the cup shape is hopeless. The sizing is all wrong on many of their clothes, the days of being able to buy in your size without trying on and knowing it will fit are long gone. Just look at their website on size charts, as a good example compare the sizing in Per Una to the standard women's range. Jeremy Paxman has pre-empted my letter to Stuart Rose and Kate Bostock on this very subject. And don't ask my husband about their inability to sell a range of suits with a single pleat style trouser!
Lucy, Perth,
You could ask Dr Stuttaford about this. I think he would say that as men age their ligaments (support for tackle) weaken and this means that they need more support from their underwear. No boxers for the over 60s. I think the quality of the pants hasn't changed, it's just that Jeremy, like me, is getting older.
Peter, Farnham
Peter Clements, Farnham, Surrey
I bought an M&S pure wool cardigan in the early 1980s and it is still going strong. I bought another 2 years ago and within a month part of it disintegrated after the first handwash, literally. M&S did not want to know. They claimed I had no receipt and had worn and washed it., so it was my fault for buying a faulty product. Their knickers sag instead of fitting the bum snugly, like they used to before. Their tights tear before you have a chance to put them on completely. I don't shop at M&S anymore, and tell my friends and relatives about my bad experiences, why throw good money at dodgy products?
lala, london,
As another poster, I live overseas and used to buy boxer shorts on returns to the UK.
It was very easy to see the quality dropping as the elastic started giving out very quickly. Strangely, I bought some in Manila about 4 months ago. The fit was absolutely awful and one pair has already given out on the waistband.
Problem is that the high street is so competitive, they can only survive on margin and reputation. Reading these posts, the reputation has been slipping for a long time.
Nick, Bangkok,
Elderly men tend to have thin thighs, and M&S pants often have too large leg holes, or insufficiently springy and durable elastic around them, and one's vitals tend to escape, which is uncomfortable. I am obviously not referring to boxer style pants. More of us are living longer, please help, Sir Stuart.
P. Byles, Brackley, UK
I've had m&s boxers for years. The shortest lived they have been is 4 years, I have several going strong after 6 years of heavy useage (running, hiking, work, general use), if slightly thin between the legs!
My concern, therefore, is not with the durability of their underwear, but with the feel of the material after repeated washing.
My older pairs quickly became soft and comfortable. My newer pairs have crinkled up and become harder through their life.
Men's underwear is an issue very close to our hearts... well, decision making organs at least
David Thomas, Norwich, England
I feel the quality of M&S underwear is no longer there. I bought a pair recently and to be honest I just threw them in the bin.
Sorry M&S but you do need to address this.
Martin,Sussex.
martin, eastbourne, e. sussex
I agree with Mr. Paxman the quality of underwear material is
thinner and cheaper and people are going to think twice before
buying again from Marks.
Y asmin , London,
I agree with Mr Paxman. It's true! Their socks do indeed appear to be wearing out unusually quickly on the big toe. I had begun to notice this recently with some newly purchased socks bought from M&S but the coin didn't actually drop until Mr Paxman's views appear to have inadvertently been brought to the public eye. I don't have any issues with M&S boxer shorts though.
Ray Rodriguez, London,
M & S men's underwear has deteriorated but their shirts and ties have got much better. The men's shoes still look as though they were made in Romania in 1982. M & S are good at some things and bad at others - like any other shop.
The food is still good if you can afford it, but for some reason they have redecorated our local M & S food hall in shades of dark, so that it feels like a set for a Tim Burton film.
Frank Upton, Solihull,
It has been said that Albert Einstein never wore underwear. Im seventy-five and I've not worn the awful things for some forty years. I have saved money best and have the pleasur that friction brings. Throw away the bra, throw away the bloomers, throw away the stranglers that are restricting what is natural: freedom.
jack, Bangkok, Thailand
Is nothing sacred?
R Bingham, Lauzun, France
A few years ago, I almost bought a pair of M&S trousers labelled "Chinos". Apart from the fact that the fabric was weird for Chinos (not entirely sure what it was), an examination of the garments revealed them to be almost identical, apart from the colour, to trousers being sold down the road at the Famous Army Stores as "Police Surplus".
As for underwear, I got mine from M&S for years, before they stopped selling the style I preferred. I now get them from Matalan - almost identical in style, the quality is at least as good, and I get three pairs for less than the cost of one pair from M&S. No contest.
Ron Graves, Birkenhead, England
Pants to MS Pants.
I recently disposed of a five pack of cotton boxer shorts from M & S as the fabric was so crinkly that laboured pressing was required to make them wearable. Too much high maintenance, too low couture!
Anthony A, London,
Some of you people should get a life. But then again, you have made me smile! I can't even get to the shops to complain about the products because of the unauthoroised people using disabled bays. But I don't despair! Yet!
Jan, Brighton, UK
My wife has been saying for some years that M&S has cut back tremendously on men's underwear - pants. She has noticed over several years that the gusset has got much narrower and recently the material has got much thinner and is of a lesser quality.
Bob Reid, Staines, Middx
I have no problems with M & S pants or socks. All my pants are bought in TENNESSEE of USA fabric and made in El Salvador. Similarly the socks I buy there are hard-wearing, neither fall down nor are uncomfortably tight around my calves and are made in China.
G Davies, North Wales.
Glyn H. Davies, St Asaph, Denbighshire, Wales, UK
Most of M&S T shirts ,underwear women and men and socks and tights are very poor quality. Thanks to Mr Paxman we can have this debate instead of M&S insisting that they are still maintaining the high quality. The reason the returns are low is becase once items are washed we cannot return them so we the customers suffer the loss.
Angie Singh, Bromley, Kent
The fat cats are getting richer, the poor guys are getting poorer, the planet is edging toward the boiling point, politicians still operate under the 'go in with guns blazing' mentality but the most exciting news of the day is the condition of Jeremy Paxman's undergarments. If nothing else this article demonstrates the decidedly limited intelligence of most humans.
Shirley Hodge, Glasgow, E. Renfrewshire
I suspect that the low return rates on pants and socks are because many customers live overseas. Years ago, in my true "expat" days - on contract in Africa - I and many of my acquaintances would make a beeline for M&S on our two-yearly overseas leave, where we would buy large quantities, particularly underwear. Even today, I still buy my underwear at M&S during visits to UK.
But - if something wears out early then I am certainly not going to do anything than throw it away!
A few years ago, M&S underpants were made in Egypt and lasted well. Then they began to be made in China, were slightly thinner and didn't last. If memory serves me correctly (I'm not going to drop my trousersin the office to confirm this), my most recent purchases were made in Indonesia and seem to be of better quality.
Barry Woodrow, Reykjavik, Iceland
The reason why people don't return their underwear to M&S is because M&S (and other stores) don't accept underwear that has already been worn/tried on. Sir Stuart Rose is stating the obvious in this regard. M&S and other stores, however, have not addressed the fact that we're bored of paying for expensive underwear that falls apart after the 5th wash.
Simon, London,
I've looked at the large displays of mens underwear which seems to consist of many packets of the same three Chinese manufactured items in different colours.
They are probably being purchased down the road from where Matalan, Asda, Tesco and every other seller of cheap male underwear buy their goods wholesale in China.
Its no use the the boss of M&S starting to do a "we challenge you to prove our goods are not of the highest quality" public relations job. The underwear is not the quality that it once was from this shop, the reason being all the decent manufacturers have bitten the dust because every business like M&S wants to buy cheap as chips from China and sell at a premium price because its M&S
And, its not only underwear, the mens suits are of the worst cut with barely acceptable materials and as dull as ditchwater. The only reason why baggy trousers were ever fashionable is because the workers have to finish so many pairs a shift and the sewing of the seams is rubbish.
Phil de Buquet, Newport, England
Paxman is right on this one. I've thrown out recently purchased M&S briefs. Terrible fit, terrible elastic, terrible support.
Robert Miller, London, UK
Paxo's on the money, though I guess it's not the crotch support that he's on about. The elastic in M&S boxers has been declining in quality for years now, to the point that 10 or 20 washes will see your smalls looking decidedly wrinkly around the waist, leaving them only fit for duster duty - great, if I was to actually get around to doing any dusting.
Julian, Twickenham, UK
I have used plain blue socks for decades all great till about 5 years ago. Holes apearring in every pair,something which never happened previously. Now trying the black fitted "best ever" or some such title, and they seem very good...How about blue?
Bob, Norwich, Nfk
Yes thoroughly test them but give Paxman time to get out of them first.
B. Curtis, Crawley, England
How about women's bras. I have stopped buying M & S bras because they are no longer as comfortable. I have had them properly fitted in M & S but to no avail. I now buy another brand.
Ann, Chelmsford, United Kingdon
First time I have ever commented but its an emotive issue. I bought some M&S biggish knickers two months ago and as they were on buy one get one half price ended up with 12 pairs. Unfortunately on the first wearing they became baggy and provided so little support or comfort that a week later I binned the lot and bought some proper underwear from Debenhams.
Sue, London,
I bought two pairs of M&S socks in 1980 and much to my partner's horror they are still going strong. I bought some last year and they are in tatters. Draw your own conclusions. (About the socks!)
Rob, Midsomer Norton, UK
If the boss of M&S responds personally to every customer feedback letter he receivdes, when does he find the time to run the business?
David, Birmingham, UK
M&S must be buying their underpants in Russia and the surrounding areas since, as we all know, you will have a problem with Chernobyl fall-out
Peter, Maidstone, UK
Socks were of equal concern, and being of a similar age to Paxman, they remain my chief concern. Many of us were dragged around M&S because they did stock quality stuff, which, to use Paxman's sentiment, is how M&S grew to be iconic.
It wa s a good few years now when one of the 'fights for survival' lead to a drive to attact younger customers. I suspect that this was the turning point for those of us who relied on the quality of M&S.
What is the average number of days wear of a pair of socks, I wonder. there must be stats on this. Tell us.
I buy M&S socks with the days of the weeks on so it's easy to have an effective rotation system. My last pack of the five daily socks saw three pairs develop big toe holes within 14 weeks: 14 days wear. Yes, I cut my toe nails.
Now this subject has been aired, give use the information. Men aged in decades v how long briefs or y fronts kept and ditto socks. I want to know how normal I am!
Ian, Lome, Sunny Togo
Ian Sayer, Lome, Togo
He should try finding a bra that fits!
If you aren't a DDD, or bigger, M&S don't want to know.
Long live Elle McPherson and her excellent range of ladies underwear! Although she could go easy on the thongs and make more (any!) proper bikini style pants that actually cover your arse.
Few women actually <i>want</i> to part with large sums of money to sit on cheese wire all day so you end up with a mismatch of good bras and BHS knickers.
Thalia, London,
For all the money he earns, he still shops at an average quality store... I earn a less than average wage and nevertheless I spend good money on high quality underwear. You get what you pay for. Maybe Mr. Paxman does not consider his nether regions very important. I wouldn't trust M&S as good enough for mine!
Max Longhin, Hove, UK