I have just read through all the comments on this discussion board, & can only say it made depressing reading.
As a dentist myself I had to make the decision to go private years ago because it was apparent even then that the writing was on the wall for NHS dentistry. I was working two late nights a week, skipping lunch to meet the demand, & was seeing an ever-diminishing bottom line. I faced a stark choice - start producing huge amounts of sub-standard work to make a profit, or go private & provide a quality service. I chose the latter . I really didn't fancy losing my house, or having a heart attack!
The un-informed twaddle being vented by some splenetic contibutors leaves me amazed. But people, here's the bottom line - YOUR GOVERNMENT ARE LYING TO YOU, AGAIN! The system is unworkable, under-funded, & in crisis. If the government cant fund life-saving anti-cancer drugs what on earth makes any of you think they give a stuff about your teeth? The NHS is dead, get over it!

Ian Crutchley, Belfast,

To Michael Bruce: as a recently qualified dentist I have over £35,000 of debt after 6 hard years of intensive training I feel my salary is fully justified. If you feel that a dentist commanding a higher income than yourself is unfair then you should take time to consider the number of weeks of the year you as a teacher are actually at work; in the current climate of the NHS, half-terms and school holidays would be a blessing. Do you have to pay the GDC and a professional indemnity company several hundred pounds a year to practice? Do you have targets to meet?

A Dentist, Darlington,

only resently l recored my former dentist partice manger admitting that they have a policy and where not letting thier nhs patients know this. where l was one of them.
Miss one apointment and your dropped by the dentist , l only found this out, when l had to make a complaint on the day l truned up for my apointment. After having to rebook after, l mist my last one, a week before.
as l was in the nhs hosptial and was not discharged till it was too late to get anyone to call or even myself let the dental pratice know.

I did get to wonder why l was getting the cold shoulder in the waiting room of the dentist only to be told the denist would not now see me.
Yes l am a patients who has long dental history and even more so need an injection to make me sleepy before any needle goes near me.
So afer recording the dentist amitting dropping nhs patients policy.l left with ongoing tooth infecfions and no dentist to treat me. So now my health sufferers due to nhs dental policy.

louise, northants, england

Michael Bruce: as a teacher you should know how the government screws service providers.
Tom: your figures do not reflect reality and your comments are ignorant.
Kevan Matthews: you deserve the sort of dental system that your recommendations would produce. Fortunately for you you will soon have an NHS dental system that is worse even than that, thanks to Labour's efforts.

Ian, London, UK

The value to public health of good dentistry is easily underestimated. The presence of gum disease and poor dentation is associated with substantially reduced lifespan and quality of life.

The British people would be well advised to make whatever sacrifices are needed and "go private." NHS dentistry is the laughingstock of the world.

Edward Sodaro, Massapequa, NY/USA

As a teacher, may I now refuse to teach unsuccessful children? Will my garage refuse to mend malfunctioning cars?

Can the dentists please grow up and do the job they're overpaid to do?

Michael Bruce, Selby, Yorkshire

One day people will realise that the old system of NHS dentistry has gone....forever. It has been replaced with a target driven emergency service. The old system was too good - I mean what other branch of medicine do you get a 6 monthly check when you have no problems - it had to be downgraded. When I see people demanding NHS dentistry I wonder if they know what it is?

K matthews is right, NHS dentists in this country are becomming little use - but not to society - to government. Whilst they toil trying to care for patients and stay in business and make the most of the new contract, the government is plotting to put them out of business and hand the NHS budget over to the private sector. Dentists will then be employed by private companies and we will have yet another layer of management in the NHS, even less money for patient care, and a far worse system that prioritises company profit to shareholders over dental care for patients. Just wait and see.

Simon David, Cardiff, UK

Dentists are greedy, plain and simple. Even after expenses they are earning much more than an average person.

I went to a dental trade show last year and manfacturers of dental equipment were encouraging dentists to scare patients into accepting expensive treatments.

If only patients knew the truth. For example, a top-of-the-range ceramic crown costs the dental lab £20. They charge the dentist about £80 and the dentist charges the patient £600. It's no wonder more and more patients are seeing treatment abroad where they don't have to pay rip-off Britain prices.

Tom, London,

I work under the new dental contract, this contract fails patients, dentists and ultimately will fail itself.
The current measure by the goverement on dental acivity is something called a UDA (unit of Dental Acivity). This UDA has no realtion to time. I can earn 3 UDa points in 5-10 mins on certain procedures, on other procedures or patients i could get 3UDA's in 2+ hours on a patient.
gordon brown went to see a pivate dentist for root canal treatment - im not suprised under this new contract. Under this new contract a lot more teeth will be removed than potentially could be repaired if dentists where given a fair time for ceratin procedures.
The solution is simple reduce the filling uda's to 2 and allow it per filling. THen increase the Uda's for root canal treament and make these fee per item. PATients dont realise but the goverment is punishing those financially who take care of there teeth to subsidise people who really dont care. Unhappy NHS Dentist!

Amit Hindocha, leicester, uk

As far as I'm concerned most of our dentists in the UK are quickly becoming of little use to our society. The NHS should sack them all and bring in new dentists from other countries who are prepared to work to "our" system's requirements... Our dentists should realise that they are only of value to society whilst ever they provide a useful service to it.

Kevan R Matthews, Nottingham, England

Sadly the Dentist Profession, via the BDA and other organisations, warned this Government that if they forced this new NHS Dental system that treats "Targets" (called UDAs) above quality of care, Public and Dentists will suffer unfortunately.

The Government pressed on regardless, introducing new patient charges too which makes NHS treatment for the average person more expensive than ever before - NHS Dentists must collect this and pass it onto Government, as a sort of Tooth-Tax, but no doubt most people think Dentists get this too, but like VAT, they do not !!!

Dentists are an easy Target to blame in the Press, but why do they let Labour off the hook so easily I wonder - are they afraid they won't get interviews or exclusives from Politicians easily if they criticise them too much?

If HMG's NHS Dental system really IS SO BAD, why blame Dentists for not wanting to have anything to do with it (ie: Go Private) or blame those who stay and try to do something in a flawed system ?

Sam Redman, London, UK

Everyone laughs at the US for not having a Nationalized health system, however, even without dental insurance I can still find hundreds of Dentists within my area that would be willing to aid me with any situation. It may cost me, but I can still get in, often times the very day I call.

MAC, Pittsburgh, PA

its fine if you can afford to go private for your dental and any other treatment you need, most of us despite working long hours cannot, maybe we should stop paying into an already corrupt health system and make our own choice with the monies that the NI payments each month would leave us in our pay packet, oh! that would be the american way though wouldnt it? at least they dont pay twice,three times etc.... i don't mind paying contributions or taxes to systems if they work and help the public, i also expect to take a certain ammount of responsibility for my own oral health, BUT as with anyone, family history, medication etc also play a part with peoples health be it dental or otherwise and if we have paid we deserve the reward of fair treatment, so stop moaning and sort it out after all you've had our money, onec should be enough

mrs s. matthews nottingham

Kevan R Matthews, Nottingham, England

i only earn £300 pounds a day as an nhs dentist im ready to leave.

Amit Hindocha, leicester, uk

How odd, Carmine of Manchester. My current partner and my ex have had no trouble finding a dentist in Manchester, and that was pretty recently.

starling, Lancaster,

2 years or so ago I went to a dental clinic within Woking Community Hospital. It was excellent in all respects. You could walk in and be treated under NHS on emergency basis. Then within last 12 months or so they changed everything. They no longer allow you to simply turn up and wait, they insist that you call them and see if they have any slots available. I have very bad molar and it was very painful and yet I cannot find any NHS dentist in Woking, even though there are 80,000 people here. I thus called up the Surrey Dental Helpline run by the Primare Care Trust and was made an appointment at the dental clinic at Woking Community Hospital for 24th May just gone. I turned up on time and waited and was called in by the female dentist. She then proceed to tell me that all she could do was clean it up a bit a plug the hole. She said that she was not allowed to do anymore than that !. It is disgusting that in a large town there is not even 1 dentist. Thank you Tony Blair and Labour.

John Pepin, Woking, Surrey

Darrin was charged £30, projects that to £300 per hour and claims dentists are overpaid.

But I wonder, Darrin, if you have considered the cost of the dental facility, its instruments and its staff, including the costs of complying with NHS paperwork. You might find that the dentist is making only a fraction of the total amount.

I don't know the specific costs associated with NHS dentistry in Lancashire, but even government agencies have costs that go beyond salary!

rkb, NY, NY

Hey! The good news for us in the United States is that if we elect Hillary Clinton, we can have a government-run system just like this! I have always hated going to the dentist anyway.

Jim Shelton, Searcy, Arkansas

How coinci"dental" (excuse the pun) that you should have this news article. I live in Woking, Surrey a town with a population of about 80,000 or so. Maybe 3 years ago I went to the Dental Centre at the Woking Community Hospital and used their walk in dental clinic. It was excellent. Then about 1 year ago they change this centre so that you could no longer walk in there and get treated but had to phone up Surrey Dental Helpline and I found that they refused to give me an appointment at Woking Community Hospital. Eventually I did get an appointment there on Thursday 27th May 07. I went then with what is a severely damaged and painful molar. I was told that they could not do anything other than put a temporary filling in, whereas 2/3 years ago they would actually mend the tooth. This is a disgusting absolvement of themselves from care for patients. So I still have a very painful tooth. I rang Surrey Dental Helpline who told me that there is NOT EVEN 1 NHS Dentist in Woking. DISGUSTING

John, Woking, Surrey

The new dental system is an UNTRIED EXPERIMENT and it isn't working .The very low NHS fees have not even kept pace with inflation for decades. Dedicated dentists worked sixty hours a week seeing 50-80 patients A DAY to keep the system going ruining their health and family life to care for their patients.

A new dental practice has £140,000 MAXIMUM as a years TURNOVER,. There is NO HELP for property purchase or rent, equipment (£40,000 minimum) Staff salaries, insurance, rates,materials, laboratory fees(many Labs are at the point of bankruptcy as dentists have been made to cut down on their lab work) loan interest etc etc. EVERYTHING HAS TO COME OUT OF THE £140,000. IF there is anything left that is what the dentist is paid. If a loss is made then tough.

Family Doctors on the other hand have ALL their expenses covered and go home with £100,000- £140,000. for a standard working week.

Dentistry did not get the extra funding the rest of the NHS did.

Any suggestions anyone?

Dr. R.Silverwood, wolverhampton, England

I'm an American living in the UK. When I arrived I had beautiful teeth. Now my teeth are a mess thanks to the incompetence of UK dentistry practices. I have a defective heart valve, which doesn't help matters. I can't wait to move back home so that an American dentist can repair the damage which has been done.

Ann, Newcastle, UK

Presumably those people who are being turned away by NHS dentists are paying the same in NI contributions to those who are being treated.
How will these people be reimbursed financially for their overpayment?
Sadly, if they also happen to be obese smokers, they could be refused NHS medical treatment as well (as recently highlighted by The Times).
I thought we lived in an egalitarian society - not the selective one that seems to grown up with "new labour"

P.Croft, Lincolnshire, UK

The term for this is “Capitalist Money Madness”.

Heinrich Dorfmann, Maidstone, Kent

Ten years ago my dentist told me that he 'had so much money he didn't know what to do with it'. As per usual we are now in a situation where those least able to afford treatment go without.

Jan, Blackpool, England

why do people think doctors and dentist are greedy and the goverment have control over their lives. People should shut up or pay up. Its not for free. Nothing in society is. Its not their right to have health care for free. I dont get a free plumber when my drain blocked i have to pay, and g-d help me if its a bank holiday. People should pay the going rate. Medcal Profeesionals have trained to a high standard for a long time, oten at sacrice to their familes. Other professions would not put up with this. People should learn to take responsibilty for their heath. If they can afford the car, the holiday, the nights out and the debt they run up on their credit cards they should learn to look after their health first,.

Jeremy, London,

What has happened is that the Dentists realised that they could earn many times more doing private work than NHS work and so it is now impossible to get them to come back to or continue in the NHS service. This Government has all but destroyed this Country and how on earth Blair can say that he is a "Labour" prime minister is beyong me as Labour was MEANT to stand for working classes and social care, but what Blair has done is taken the name "Labour" and bastardised and destroyed it.

John, Woking, Surrey

When people see £300 per hour, there is a deeply misunderstood concept that the £300 per hour is the dentists take home pay. That figure is a GROSS REVENUE figure for the business from which staff need paying, rent, gas, electric, materials and other consumables, and laboratory costs need paying to name only a few of the high expenses occured in dental practice. We hear of large companies making thousands per minute yet when it comes to a dental practice everyone puts their blinkers on and thinks "those greedy dentists" - nothing could be further from the truth, especially under the current dreadful NHS contract. The lack of access is a consequence of the contract i.e. the Government, not the dental practices. They are trying to find ways to the impossible possible and that saddly has to involve compromises.

Antony, Manchester, UK

I can fully understand why Dentists have been leaving the NHS in droves. My current dentist (private) drives a Porsch and goes on holiday at least 4 times a year.

Unfortunately, I require treatment in a timeframe that I cannot get via the NHS, so I have to go private (which is fantastic, except the price).

Is there any way of opting out of the NHS? I'd rather use my contributions to go on BUPA and private dental.

Ian, Manchester, uk

Polly, they are becoming so greedy because they want to align themselves with the rest of the medical profession who, in turn, want to align themselves with city bankers.

Ashwin, London, UK

As a dental hygienist, I do find the current system of the NHS dentistry appalling as oral health is viewed almost separately to general health. However, simply having access to a dentist regularly is no guarantee of maintaining a healthy mouth. Being dentally fit is all about healthy lifestyle including diet and good oral hygiene, as most of dental diseases are preventable. Yes, part of this maintenance includes screening by a dentist to detect disease at an early stage, but people need to take responsibility for their own health. Instead of throwing money at access centres aimed at treating dental emergencies only, the government need to invest in health promotion. By helping people to look after themselves and their families properly by education and funding to reduce poverty, dental disease could be considerably reduced in the UK . Currently, it is like investing loads of money in heart surgery, without ensuring people don't get heart disease in the first place!

Catherine Laws, Brackley,

I live in Woking, Surrey. I have been trying to find a dentist here for 9 months are there is not even one NHS dentist for the whole town which is very large town. This Labour Government has desicrated the whole Country and all its public services, the only thing that they are good at it spin and yet there is no substance beneath that spin.

Kevin, Woking, UK

Dear John,
Periodontal problems are caused by plaque, which collects on teeth. If you don't brush and floss your teeth regularly and properly, then you may well get periodontal disease. 'Hygiene work' helps, but the main factor is YOU keeping YOUR teeth clean.
Dentists who chose to contract to carry-out work for the NHS are not paid anything for leaving their home telephone number as an emergency contact number. When I worked mostly within the NHS (I don't now), we did a rota system using mobiles.
I think you were extremely lucky indeed to have an NHS dentist who was prepared to allow you access to his home/family telephone number.
My Denplan patients get my mobile (that's what they are paying for, amongst many other benefis).

Dr Steve Morris, Newcastle, UK

The new dental system is an UNTRIED EXPERIMENT and it isn't working .The very low NHS fees have not even kept pace with inflation for decades. Dedicated dentists worked sixty hours a week seeing 50-80 patients A DAY to keep the system going ruining their health and family life to care for their patients.

A new dental practice has £140,000 MAXIMUM as a years TURNOVER,. There is NO HELP for property purchase or rent, equipment (£40,000 minimum) Staff salaries, insurance, rates,materials, laboratory fees(many Labs are at the point of bankruptcy as dentists have been made to cut down on their lab work) loan interest etc etc. EVERYTHING HAS TO COME OUT OF THE £140,000. IF there is anything left that is what the dentist is paid. If a loss is made then tough.

Family Doctors on the other hand have ALL their expenses covered and go home with £100,000- £140,000. for a standard working week.

Dentistry did not get the extra funding the rest of the NHS did.

Any suggestions anyone?

Dr. R.Silverwood, wolverhampton, England

I aggree with you John Dixon. I find surprising that there are people like Polly who say dentists are greedy and unprofessional. Do not say anything without knowing the reality. We work hard and we do get a poor deal from the government. Lets hope for a mass exodus from NHS this year of all the dentists. That will wake the government up.

John, cardiff,

I moved home to another county in 2004 & there is only one NHS dentist available to me, unfortunately he has a 5 yr waiting list. Even if a new dentist opened up through no fault of my own they won't accept me as I have been unable to visit the dentist.

It's no wonder we are now known worldwide as the "bad teeth" nation

Amanda Regan, Nr Swindon, Glos

I had a routine check-up recently and I was in the dentist's chair for six minutes,which cost me £30.Naomi Campbell once famously said that she wouldn't get out of bed unless she was getting at least £10K.I believe in paying a fair wage for a fair day's work,but £300 per hour leaves me open-jawed.If I were getting out of bed to earn that much,I certainly wouldn't be looking down in the mouth all day.

Darrin, Preston, Lancashire

Well, that's just great. I've spent the last four years trying to get seen by (or even on the waiting list of) any dentist in my area - fortunately, I haven't had any problems with my teeth in that period, but now, because I haven't been ABLE to see a dentist, no dentist will accept me! Thanks for screwing me, Labour.

Carmine, Manchester,

Having worked in post graduate dental education for over twenty years I can assure your readers both in the UK and the USA that there are many excellent dentists working in Britain. Unfortunately it is no longer possible for them to practice ethical dentistry to a high standard for all patients on the NHS, and thousands have moved to private practice as a result. It is nothing to do with greed.
What is a national scandal is that the government forced an unworkable NHS contract on the profession which financially penalises any dentist who tries to provide comprehensive high quality care to high needs patients, to such an extent that they would inevitably become bankrupt.
It's like forcing taxi drivers to accept a £5 fare for every journey, no matter how long. The drivers expenses soon outstrip this fare unless they only accept passengers for very short journeys.
Some believe that they really want to drive dentists out of the NHS.
Yes, this government is that stupid and dishonest.

A Healy, Great Missenden, Bucks

When the dentist (who is running a business) is not reimbursed adequately by the state for the procedures they perform on NHS patients, then in a capitalist society the dentist is quite within their rights to refuse to treat those patients. If the government want to improve the health of people's teeth then they know what to do...

John Dixon, London, UK

Why dentist are becoming so extremely greedy and umprofessional and why the goverment permit all of this?

polly, London,

Here in the US dental insurance(then ridiculously cheap) had not increased Dentist's payments for many years, back in the 1980's and 90's while medical insurance consistently raised its payment rates year in and year out. Finally the Dentists and the Insurance industry woke up and modestly increased patients insurance rates and this enabled them to decently increase Dentist payments. We still pay out of pocket about 20-35 percent of the bill, but the insurance is still very cheap($25-45 a month). Now our denstists make a lot more money overall and everyone is happier. I can't believe the state of people's teeth from modern European countries when for very little money compared to regular medical care you can have healthy, good looking teeth a lifetime. Infections in gums are a risk for heart attacks and strokes so there is a double benifit. If Britain has the will and some clever administrators a really good dental system could be built and also mint new Dentists.

Brian Stewart, los angeles,

I had a dentist in the UK that did no hygene work. When I moved to the USA, after regularly going to the dentist in the UK, I was asked if I had been to a dentist in recent years and if so why had they not diagnosed my periodental problem. The answer of course is that the 'drill and fill' tradition of UK dentistry is sadly far behind the US as they do just what they are paid for by the NHS, and make you feel that they are doing you a favor. The dental experience I have had over here makes my UK experience look Victorian at best, and there is a good chance I would have lost all my teath had I stayed there much longer. Oh yes, and my UK dentist had an 'emergency number' that no doubt he got paid for by the NHS; but if you phoned after hours it was his home and his wife would assess whether you needed emergency treatment; if she is still doing that, just hope she had some dental training, I doubt it.

John , Boston, USA

The new dental system was designed to help dentists by removing the treadmill of the old system while building in incentives to ensure high quality of treatment in a quality enviroment. It is meant to help patients access treatment that they need.
The win-win scenario is in fact a lose -lose scenario.
Dentists gross income has been capped at rediculously low levels that do not allow them to pay for quality staff, quality premises nor quality materials. The patients are unable to access the treatment they need through the NHS because the Department of Health has limited practice capacities to levels that do not reflect demand in many areas while in others they have placed targets that are unattainable.
PCT's whose cash resources are limited are actively discouraging dentists from seeing the disadvantaged who do not contribute Patient Charge Revenue.
Gordin Brown has no faith in the system and chose to be treated privately!

Dr Alan Bookey, london, UK

This is simply a catastrophe for Britain, on par with Elphinstone's campaign in Afghanistan or the battle of Isandlhwana.

Nelson Hernandez, McLean, VA, USA